Manouchehr Motabar
Audio of the Entire Interview
Interview Transcript
Part 01
I was born in Shiraz in 1315
I spent my school years in Shiraz
Our family was rather populated
four girls and four boys
We weren’t that poor, but living back then was generally hard for everyone
I remember most people walked barefoot
And there was no running water either, so people took their water out of some canals out on the streets
or if we had socks they would have been so worn out that you would have to patch them up
When I told my son about this he really felt sorry for us
But also Shiraz was a place for culture with a lot of knowledgeable and thoughtful citizens
which was a good thing for me
I remember we used to read books
Nowadays young people spent most of their time on those smart phones
We used to seize every opportunity to read some books
There were shops you could rent books from every night for a very cheap price
This book reading continued till college. I remember I used to read as much as I could.
I remember I found myself interested in painting when I was at high school
I entered Shiraz university of literature first and started studying English language
but after a while I realized I couldn’t forget about the school of fine arts
and the next year in 1338 or 39 I took part in its entrance exam and was fortunately accepted
My parents didn’t approve very much and
their reason was their financial worries for me about the future
I remember they used to ask me how I was going to make a living out of painting as my job
Well, I could say I made my efforts for it to picking it as my job.
I remember when I came here to Tehran to continue my studies , I came second in the entrance exam
When my name was printed on the list of the accepted ones at the university
I remember it made my mom happy
She was curious to know now that I was so determined about studying painting at college
what I was going to do about it or how I was going to pull it in the end so to speak
I started working as a painter at college
made many artist friends back then including
Mr.Nami, Mr.Jafari, Mr.Shiva
and later on Mr.Mesghali and Mr.Momayez
It was a great time for me
The masters of the craft we learned from back then including Mr. Javadi Pour, Mr. Hamidi
Mr. Heydarian, and Mrs. Behjat Sadr
and Mr. Vaziri
Those were the days really!
I learned a lot of things from all those people. Good old days really! Good old days!
Mr.Heydarian had good knowledge and
experience of nature landscapes and painting nature realistically
but you could say he was sort of taken for granted back then
He would ask us to try and paint exactly what we saw in nature
but for instance I would use and put more paint
and express an impressionism style which he wouldn’t approve very much
But you know what
I am sure all those things happening back then really helped me
find out about my way of performing it and also in maintaining my level of determination for it
My failures turn into the steps I had to take in order to gain success.
I am happy to say that I like the fact that I am here now
and also about not changing my decision about following the job
I liked cause I think I have fortunately been able to help the art of drawing in Iran a little bit
and I’m really happy because of that!
I took a course in art education at Indiana University
but dropped out halfway through
because I could no longer afford the tuitions
I took three or four trips to New York to take drawing courses there
which were mostly held in summer or fall
with choices of taking three or six-month courses
which were really improving for me in terms of learning new things
In fact, I managed to hold one or two exhibitions here in Iran every time
I returned from there out of the best of what I had made during those courses all at Seyhoun Gallery
The overall number of the exhibitions I had during college time was up to may be five or six in total
I also got myself a job during college when I was a sophomore
in the ministry of art and culture in the graphic department
There I had colleagues like Mr.Barirani,
and Mr.Javadi Pour
Mr.Esfandiari There
we were in charge of publishing two magazines going by the names Golbaang
and Honareh Mardom ( People’s Art)
Later on, I quit that job and got myself a new one in the field of teaching at art schools
I started out from teaching boys’ schools and later on also started teaching girls’ schools too
In fact I finally got retired at a girls’ school in year 1375
Each person has a certain kind of mentality to themselves and
speaking of the things we do or practice for like fifty years of our lives because we like them
the most important part of all this deal would be transferring it to the younger generations
so they could work on them and make efforts to develop them so it would progress
That’s something we should do for our younger generations
like what our fathers and before that our grandfathers had done for their society
I don’t like for my experience not to be observed and
reviewed and hopefully developed by the next generations.
During the courses I took in Art education in the US
I realized how not very good most of our teachers are
Because the ones I had there were really, really ones!
I honestly have been trying to act like them
I love all my students like my own children really
I have a lot of good memories from them
I really love them all and fortunately a lot of my students really love me too
There is something about teachers and teaching in Iran in general that I’d like to criticize here
It is about the way all teachers here trying to sort of recruit their students
like having a bunch of flunkies around them
They often use children to work on experiences they haven’t tried for themselves yet
or ask them to make exact copies of what they have done only
This would destroy children’s innovations and characters
I, on the other hand, have never asked them to be like me
and always want from them to be themselves only
cause my dream has always been trying to open new horizons for the young minds to success in
What I do is like putting a spotlight on their works
so they could see their own flaws for themselves and try to find a way for it to finally solve them with
One of my students for example is Mrs.Masoumeh Mozafari
who if you see her works you will realize that she is following her own way of painting
and not at all like me
In fact she is a very good one
I know many of these people
Unfortunately teachers here do not do that
Part 02
I had rented a house in Fakhrabad (Name of an area)back in the days
and I remember there in its staircases the neighbors kept Geranium flowers
during winter time and then put them back in the yard in spring again
I thought they could be good subjects to work on and started painting them
I kept on painting those flowers for about three years
and finally reached a certain point that I was able to start analyzing them
and in fact, I was finally able to give them a sort of an abstract form
I lived in Isfahan for some time
and there all those old street ways and doorways
and narrow dead ends were all really attractive for me
In fact, I later on got inspired by them to start working on a collection later
on named the “narrow streets”
which I threw an art exhibit in Seyhoun Gallery with.
I remember after the” narrow streets” collection I started working on flowers
You know, the things an artist ends up working with
really depend on the things they see around them
and the things which are effective on them
The things they could start talking with or to send their message with so to speak
After the revolution in Iran, I started working on social issues using everything I had learned till then
This led to the making of my chador-wearing ladies collection,
which gained quite good amount of popularity at the time
From there, I actually managed to become more successful in my field.
I put a lot of emphasis on the space and the subject in my works
Drawing and painting are both done by seeing and imagining. In fact
in order to have exact models to work on
I would actually ask my nieces or other members of the family
who could wear chador to do it for me so that I could draw them
I would actually ask my nieces or other members of
the family who could wear chador to do it for me so that I could draw them
Before working on this collection, I had practiced human
anatomy, which happened to be really helpful for the whole process
For example, one of those women has a baby underneath her chador in one of my works
and you could actually feel that on the canvas because I had painted those using my models
I mean, I would ask them to hold a baby underneath
so I could see what exactly it would look like to draw them better.
In another stage of my life I worked on crows, in another I worked on the pigeons
The pigeons go back to the time before the revolution in Iran
One or two of the” crows” collection ended up as items in auctions
For them I would go for fast etudes and also photography
I would take pictures from crows and use them later
not to make exact copies, but to use them to get to know their certain characteristics.
Painters who pick social issues to work on are inevitably
going to have those issues reflecting on their works
Some of these reflections are regarding the pains we have all experienced
like a pregnant woman standing in front of the window staring
out of it for example is in fact a symbol of future and looking into it
Well, as you see, this by itself is something that can speak to audience
and can later on be analyzed by those who see it
Why is that the lady is looking into the future?
She is actually doing it with all her anxieties towards the baby’s wellbeing in general.
Things like whether the baby is going to actually like to be brought to this world or not,
or what is going to happen to them in the future
Well, all this is said to the audience by that work of yours, and not by me really talking
because I have already done what I should have,
it’s now the time for the audience to see what I wanted to share
sort of like a token of what was going on in the time
I lived in and it’s gone now but I have left these works reflecting on them to be seen so to speak.
I have recently done a portrait of myself and I think it has finally reached to a proportion of what
I had in mind when I was young as something I wished back then to one day be able to do
My point is that good skill is not at all easy to achieve
I for one have now been practicing drawing and painting for fifty years and
this last portrait is what I can actually finally call my portrait to some extent
This is out of probably the three thousand self portraits I have done so far.
I think I have had more than thirty or thirty five individual
and taken part in about sixty group art exhibit in total.
All in all these things all come and go and when one art event is over,
I would then start working on new ones to take part in later events.
Speaking of the audience, I personally like the group of
audience who would have something to say or even criticize my works
rather than the ones who would just praise and call them great.
Point is that the artist says something on their piece for the audience to hear and
most importantly in my opinion is whether it would be heard by the audience or not
For instance, I for one feel really good when I realize what I have said has actually been heard and
accepted by some others, I really do.
I honestly stop liking my works after I present them in a gallery.
I always find their flaws and then I get disappointed at myself.
I even once decided to tear them up, but a friend of mine stopped me from doing so
He told me it was ok to have flaws
He also told me that each of them represented how I used to be and work back then
and how much I have changed since then.
It has now been quite a while from the last time I worked on a new piece
These days I tend to read books and poems more
In fact, artwork is not something you could do all the time
for this the artist has to be inspired first and then the idea needs to evolve itself through time
. It is like the feelings of happiness or sadness
they get piled up and after a while if we are sad for instance,
then we might suddenly burst into tears
then we might suddenly burst into tears
It is all about showing the feelings and there’s nothing we could do about it really
It emerges all by itself and when it does, we would just be the
ones who perform it, nothing else, you know?
Part 03
At first it was the love for drawing and painting which was the main reason for me to start
but when I was accepted at the school of fine arts
I realized that it was actually also helping me relieve myself
It was a way for me to start communicating with people too.
I actually felt the need to find myself some audience and found painting as the language
I wanted to talk to them with
A way to share my happiness and pain with others and feel less lonely as a result
In fact, I just felt I should start drawing whatever makes me happy or sad, you know?
I have got many works from my college time
Back then I used to be a kind of person who was just trying to share
the beauty of nature by trying to paint them as well as I could.
Later on I remember that all my focus shifted towards social subjects
what I want to say is that a large number of us were sort
of transformed by the flow of events so to speak
and were all entangled with socio-political matters.
If you draw, paint or even write the things that hurt you
you would be relieved from them. What is more, you would also be sharing those things with others
May be they have had the same experiences, so they could relate with them
Things like the memories I have from all the stages of life
and later on started bringing them up little by little in my works and started sharing them with people.
One the most important things in my opinion is what Andre’ Gide said and
I quote “The importance is the way you see things and not the things or the people you see
The things that there is has always been there
it is our way of seeing them that could be different and modern and also influential.
I have no prejudice when it comes down to learning something
I could learn from books or other people, or even from children
There have been many occasions in which I would ask if
I could keep a child’s work or at least take a picture of it
cause there is something in it for me to learn.
Every individual might have their own different way of seeing things.
The important thing is to consider the fact that these differences exist.
I myself for instance have always been trying to save traditions yet all at the same time have also
been trying to look into what is going on in the world today
But as I said someone other than me might have
a completely different way of looking and thinking about things in general
The best thing we can do is to know about their existence in order
to improve and reach higher levels of social standards.
I have been known and reviewed by the critics as someone who always looks into the past and
also forward into the future, but tries for his works to be modern
and about what is going on now and today in general.
Culture and tradition are both respectful realities, but we should be, in my opinion
able to come up with innovations in them
We can’t suddenly put them aside.
Way I see it, whatever we want to do today should be directly done to the traditions and
culture themselves, or either should be in a way derived from them
I mean, I believe modernism should come out from the traditions and culture themselves
or otherwise would not be working properly.
They do contradict, I know, but we can look into the past with our eyes today
a lot of people have done this
It wouldn’t be an easy thing to do at all but isn’t something impossible either.
Speaking of which, I can now refer to Piet Mondrian and
his works in which he managed to make directly out of traditions
I mean, it was what he managed to derive from tradition
yet all at the same time managed to get separated from them.
There are certain things that are only achieved through the process of work itself
For instance, let’s say I am working on a piece of still life.
Now working on this piece, I would then reach a certain point where
I might start involving some other objects or some furniture pieces
like a chair or put in a door may be in the background of the still life I am working on,
you know?
In other cases I might sometimes even decide to suddenly remove the whole still life and
just let whatever else I had added to it till then become the center of attention now and
also the main subject of work.
I have even had to alter or completely change my works sometimes even for ten or twenty times.
My point is that you can’t always be successful, and it is not easily achieved.
I am very obsessed with my subject and its space,
because I’d really like for these two to be fully balanced with each other
Blank spaces on my works represent loneliness, and one could easily and
clearly find out about my obsession towards them seeing my works
In fact it is all because of my emphasis on the balance
I mean I would like for my audience to know that both my full and
empty spaces on every work has been put there for a reason and therefore is representing something
which is on the whole the kind of visual
communication I have been planning for right from the beginning
As an example I can bring up Andrew White’s works
in which he sort of stirs up a person’s mentality in order to gain visual expression.
After the revolution in Iran if you took a walk on the street,
you would a lot of grey. Grey was all we could see out of all the colors
n fact our society was a grey society back then in terms of color.
Even before the revolution Iran was a grey country in comparison with Europe.
The reason why I used less color in my works is because I believed more in graphic and
drawing lines, so as the result I didn’t feel the need for colors
What is more, drawing is about picturing the world around you in my opinion and not describing it
When artists start describing the world around them
immediately in that case they enter the domain of painting and not drawing anymore
My emphasis was more on drawing, so I drew those lines and left the painting part to
the audience, see how they would paint them in their minds.
I can’t review my own works, but as far as the experts and
critics and my own feelings are concerned, a few colors are usually involved in them
for instance I can say for example the green color is a symbol of religion
and goodness for me or red is the one for anger
These colors emerge in my works out of the necessity in some particular situations would
They might show up in order to add some attraction sometimes or because they might be
able to get the audience’s mind involved for a while
Way I see it, I think these colors can communicate with the audience,
and finally they might also be related to a certain time when
I reached a certain relieving stage in my projects.
Speaking of materials, these days I work with acrylic paint much less than before
I tend to go for mixed media, and about the frames
I work only on smaller ones, because on a big one I would lose my accuracy.
Most of my works are visual and not abstract
They are visual with a touch of my own way of seeing and
also my own kind of mentality towards them
I sort of use myself as a sample to experiment on so to speak and
every now and then would like to put whatever I have learned in a challenge and
then I would start working on it with everything I’ve got really
If you see me repeating one particular piece
it would only be because of the fact that doing the first trial I wasn’t able
to reach that certain level of fulfillment from it
so I am giving it another try to see if I could change it,
so I might be able to turn it into something I really want to picture,
you know?
It is most of the time with the aim of improving my abilities and reaching better standards of work really.
There is a certain stage when I feel there is nothing else I could do about a work
In those cases I wouldn’t dare add or remove anything from that piece anymore
Whenever I feel like this, I would sign it
Though I might later on realize how it could be better or what its problem is
then in that case I would either work on it or tear it up if I found it a dead-end. And
in case I have given them away to someone
then I would start having anxieties towards them
because the thought of improving it would be on my mind, you know?
We are about five hundred years behind Europe in terms of the progress in painting
Whatever I have done in my life can actually
fill up a small part of this five hundred years gap
What I mean is our young artists can start from here.
There are many who have good levels of drawing skills in our country
and only if they start making an effort for it,
with looking both at the past and future and
also by looking at what is going on in modern countries
they might be able to come up with their own style one day, sure, why not.
You know what, unfortunately because of this huge amount
of exciting imported samples from these modern countries
they almost always suck the chance of innovation out
and usually our young artists end up making copies again
because it would be easier, but managing to establish and
introduce an original Iranian style to the world would be a much harder work that requires
making some good amounts of effort, but not impossible.
Part 04
In order for an artist to be able to fully get to know
things like objects, nature, and also people around
they should be able to draw or make a similar copy of those subjects
whatever they might be, you know
But making direct copies is something that is never considered art.
In order for a piece of work to be called an artwork the artist should pick one
of the approaches of adding or subtracting or exaggerating them.
painting is a kind of description, but drawing is just illustrating
Because drawings consist of lines you draw that come together and
give it a certain form or shape, and therefore they are considered pictures
For example, I could draw a picture of somebody or something.
For instance, when you draw a pomegranate
what you would have in the end is a picture of this fruit
like what form it has or how it looks in general,
but when you put some red paint on to color it
then it would be considered a description for this particular subject
and not just its picture anymore you know.
From then on you would enter the stage of describing your object, which is in this case a pomegranate.
Drawing and painting could both be taken as independent arts
There are some artworks like those of Jean-Auguste-Dominique Ingres’
in which you could see real powerful performances both in terms of drawing and painting.
Drawing is the base or the foundation of an artwork
For example if we pick one real good work of drawing
I mean a real solid piece of work and give it even the worst possible coloring on
that drawing performance would still show off in spite of having that real poor coloring job on it
you know what I mean?
Because of this solid base it is built on in general so to speak.
There are some things that are truly original about a nation
and I don’t think they should change.
For example, a lot of things have changed in Iran now
but I don’t think they have all been for the better, you know?
For example, there might be a time between parents and
their children that parents would feel the necessity to give their children some advice
On the other hand, there might be other cases in which parents would see their children
are learning how to cope with the world outside and
therefore they would feel no necessity for advice giving this time.
Back in our time whatever we learned
about art was from the books we could get our hands on.
That, and also through actual experiencing and processing
Young generations today do this without going through
that experiencing and processing stages I just talked about
Because we make copies these days
Ideas are imported from outside the country and people just make copies of them
You see, just because we are easily fed with new ideas to make copies of from the world outside
and whatever little we have achieved from that copying
would also easily fade away after some time
because we never made any efforts for making them,
or invested anything in it from the get go.
For example, you can’t skip through Molana’s poems
You would get nothing from them this way.
You would have to ponder in them to understand
Unfortunately, most children today can’t understand Hafez or Saadi or Molana’s poems.
For instance, contemporary poets like Shaamloo or NimaYoushij knew most of
Hafez or Saadi’s poems by heart, see what I mean?
Originality is very rare in this country
If I want to give an example of an original Iranian person,
I could only think of literature and Saadegh Hedaayat
There is a very interesting quote by him, which I would like to bring up here
He said once and I quote “You either have got something to say or don’t and if you do
you would then find the most possible appropriate way to say that.”
You can’t become original unless you see what others in your field have made.
You should see them, or in case of writers,
you should read other author’s works and get inspired by them and
also practice writing yourself until you could find
or come up with your own authentic way of doing it.
Among our painters and writers I don’t see any originality,
whereas Sadegh Hedaayat was, you know
I mean, what he wrote came originally from him and him alone.
He spoke of his life. He thoroughly studied Iran’s history
so as to be able to do something improving about it
you know. He was into causing for a sense of awakening in everyone
and was never a pessimist.
and have no share in the modern world today
We are five hundred years behind from Europe in terms of technology,
and have no share in the modern world today.
We have to have the courage to at least accept this fact
The west is so dominant over the rest of the world that whatever they make we consume
that’s it. It is like fast food.
Take a look at our music for example today
What we are doing is to make copies again
It is not something you could call a product
representing our progressive process but only theirs
For instance, take the improvement which has occurred in Europe’s abstract art
and how we are either being affected or even carried away by it
Take video arts as another example
There has never been such a thing as a result of progress in here which you could call video art
None the less, we immediately started making such things as they were introduced
just like using any other new product on the market.
I’m not talking about banning those products or ideas from entering here
what I am trying to say is that they have got their own way of doing it,
and if we try to make this effort in order to establish some sort
of connection between our world and theirs it would be great
All I’m saying is we should work on our own motives
but it would be ok to get inspired by exotic styles, you know what I mean?
What I am totally against is just making copies.
Take sculpturing for instance
This was banned in our country after Arab invasion
although there is marvelous historic
background in sculpturing here going back thousands of years
as you could see a lot of sculpturing works in the historic monuments and
buildings left from millenniums ago, like the ruins of the Achaemenid Empire.
This historic interruption happened after Arab invasion almost 1400 years ago.
We could say our historic sequence of progress was cut out by it back then
Strange thing is that it was them who started learning things from us and we just stopped progressing
Our current portrayal communication is in its early stage
It has been going on for eight or nine decades
Because our miniature painting is something more decorative than art
in my opinion, a sort of stuff of luxury done at kings’ courts back then,
which therefore does not count as art here.
My reason for saying it is because they don’t say anything like other artworks
which would put a message through or bring up a subject to discuss, you know.
Or the Sagha Khaaneh movement for that matter,
which you brought on was sort of a touristic vision,
which was closely entangled with Iranian motives
These are considered artwork, but with that touristic
vision I told you about, so are not in my opinion original.
One of the greatest examples of this series is Mr.Tanavoli’s works,
which are artistic and worthy.
They have also got their own fans and enthusiasts
and are also significant because of their focus on Iranian motives.
I can also refer to Mr.Pilaaraam and Mr.Zenderoudi as two more examples of the individuals
who also worked on Iranian motives in Saghaa Khaaneh movement
which are all worthy of course
All I am emphasizing here is originality, and therefore
in my opinion Saghaa Khaaneh movement can’t be considered original
Iranian art because of the touristic way of looking it has
It is not my job to make speeches, my job is all about drawing
Drawing is a way of talking to my audience for me.
I bring up topics I’d like to share as a way of seeing or living that I have.
And then, everybody can start giving their ideas about them
because I can’t do it myself
In fact, I also think it would be even wrong
for an artist to speak of their own works.
Because I think the artist does their share of talking in the works they present
Now, if what the artist has to say was understandable for the audience
then everything would be great
But, if such a thing doesn’t happen
then artists wouldn’t be able to do anything about it
What I mean is in situations like that the problem would be either related
to the artist’s language being incomprehensible
or their way of saying it would be wrong, you know?
All artworks are a way of saying and bringing up topics their artists would like to share
Their way of saying it is different of course for different artists
I can refer to a little child’s way of saying things which would be through sounds and
noises they make like shouting and crying for instance
An artist on the other hand has got a better frame than shouting
and crying for things they would like to say.
Sharing has benefits like improving culture and people’s knowledge in general
What is more, it helps people who share their stuff with others feel relieved by doing so.
As you see, it would be a win-win situation for both the artist who shares with others and
would as a result feel less lonely,
and also for the audience who would know about those subjects
leading to helping culture and knowledge progress forward.
Art produces culture, this by itself is satisfying for artists in general
In fact, the artists’ inner feelings would be relieved as they present their works to society.
The only place I really feel peaceful is in my workroom
It feels like my own kingdom so to speak
This bond is so solid between artists and their work that even it would be safe to say to
whoever is going to marry artists to know that they already got themselves
a spouse whom they even like more than their actual ones and it is their art and their career as artists.
We are all just basically born alone and also depart from this world alone
In fact it is this loneliness which makes
us want to communicate with the world around us
We might even feel lonely with our family like our wives and husbands and children
Because we don’t in fact share everything with them
It is like we all have our own personal backyards no one else comes to
A place we know it exists and it only belongs to us and we would also even like to think about too.
For example there are experiences we have that we can’t share with others
not unless they were our best friend. But even this doesn’t happen all the time.
Art on the other hand has got this potential to let others into our personal backyard area and
opens its doors to others to come over
Therefore, artists can share both their sorrows and bliss with other people
It is like when you smell a flower and you like it so much
You can’t describe that smell to others unless you actually gave them the flower to smell
This is actually what art does and it can do.
I’ve got to thank goodness for everything I have in life and I also got to say that whatever
has happened to me through all these years have always taught me something
It has for one thing taught me to be flexible cause I remember I used to quickly lose my temper
when someone would disagree with my opinions, but not anymore. Not now.
As I mentioned earlier this workroom around me is the center of my kingdom so to speak and
whatever you see around me now are one hundred per cent chosen by me as the things
I always wanted to have.
I never wanted much from the world
like an excellent car or an excellent house, you know?
But I always for example wanted to have a good work desk to work on that
I have now or a nice stool to sit or good work tools that I also have now
Everything you see around me now are in fact all things I ever wanted or even wished to have in life
and fortunately I have them now thank goodness.
In my opinion we should look at this world seriously
Our way of dealing with the world now is not serious. We are taking everything as jokes
If you want to do something like for instance drawing
you should take it seriously and practice for it hard too
Or when you tell someone you’re their friend, then you should really be a friend to
them or if you want to do something be really determined and dedicated to it.