Bahram Dabiri Transcript and Audio

Part 06
Conversation with Bahram Dabiri
Part 6:
Modern Art

When you claim that modern art is a Western concept;

it is only true from one aspect while from ten other aspects it is not true

Because I can bring examples for you which is repetitive and I’ve said it many times

If we take the modern movement in painting from Impressionists

they are specifically under the influence of Japanese painting

It is the period when many Japanese works enter France in the form of prints and posters

even brush strokes of Van Gogh are comparable to Japanese techniques

During the same first decade of the twentieth century, Picasso, Braque
and others are influenced by the art of Africa

These are the years that ships are constantly taking art pieces
from the East and Africa to the museums of Europe

and the European artist who has become exhausted

and disgusted of the unnecessary continuation of the Renaissance which has lasted for 400 years

weak and repetitive works, now this movement is a new blood that comes to Europe

Matisse is an important painter in France says, it is his exact words

Matisse is an important painter in France says, it is his exact words
that ” what could teach me as much as Iranian painting, the endless visual possibilities?”

that ” what could teach me as much as Iranian painting, the endless visual possibilities?”

Henry Moore was specifically under the influence of Aztec and Mayan sculptures

This comparison has been done by Westerners themselves but we haven’t done

We believe that modern art is something Western and is a stranger to us but this is not true

All non-European civilizations are influential in modern art

without exception, all of Africa, all of Iran, all of the East

Therefore, the interesting and peculiar fact in my view is that during

the same period time we have a painter called Kamalolmolk who goes to Paris

from the backward court of Qajar and copies works from 400 years before

works from Rafael, this is when there is a chaos in the Impressionist movement

When the Iranian modern artist starts to look from this view

and sees what share can I have in it and what other role I can play in it

the publicity that happens in the society is that they know Kamalolmolk as a national artist

What nation?

The same nation that calls a few spots on the rug flowers

but doesn’t accept the same flowers if they are put on canvas

It likes a flower that has a dewdrop on it

A lot of bad education has happened in Iran during these 100 years

The possibility for people to have contact with modern art which in my view was very simple

if you look at Qashqai gabbehs

if you go to Susa and look at THREE arches which is the design of a goat

this is the most modern thing that Western art has reached

to be able to create a shape from 4 simple lines

Well this was already in my culture and taste

Why do I assume that

it is true that it was suggested by the Western artist but where did he take it from?

It took from all the tastes that existed all over the world

Therefore, modern art in my opinion is not alien to us;

I have a role in it

Africa has a role in it

But this suggestion has happened over there

but understanding it and accepting it should be most logical for me

I think that the modern art movement

despite the fact that it is the governments and educational system
as well that have slowed down the possibility of this contacts and not the artists

but if we look at this 70 – 80 years of modern art movement in Iran we can name examples

or we can show works that are equivalent to the best works created in the world during

the twentieth century with very diverse and different approaches

one is the movement that brings the influence of Impressionism like Javadipoor

and a few others who are important
and although they took that way of looking and the moving of light

and color from Impressionists but if we observe their scenery

it is an understandable space from the point of view of color
and composition as an Iranian atmosphere

Or another movement that suggests Cubism like Ziapoor and others we see examples

and then in the works that were done in Europe

Minimalists that had for instance white canvas or those dimensions

Naami is a good representative for that movement

In … there is Alkhas that I still see him connected to the movement of storytelling

and icon-painting which you can tell stories from his paintings

and describe the people in it and what they do and it’s more a historic symbolism in his work

Manouchehr Safarzadeh who in my view is an unparalleled expressionist

Bahman Mohasses who might not be very dependent to schools we know

and is a totally independent and unique artist

although we can distinguish roots from ancient works in his art

but there is sometimes a protest against creation in his works

the way he disfigures the human being

Or sometimes I think that the as the impact of two deadly wars that happened in the twentieth century

we can see this hopelessness towards the evil that exists in human nature

Mohsen Vaziri himself is an excellent instructor and has a great knowledge about modern art

and had some experience in volumes that could be changed as well as in weaving

and scattering sand over the canvas

Without having taste involved in what I say

by looking at examples of experiences that happened for artists
throughout the world during the twentieth century

painters and sculptors of Iran were very successful

and they are numerous not only in this geographic

and cultural territory we live in

take a look at Turkey, Pakistan, Iraq or even our Northern neighbors

and Eastern European countries but during the same 100 years

examples that we find in Iran are distinguished and important works

Now the argument is about what happens subsequent to modernism

this might again be repetitive

I have divided the modern art era into two periods

One from Impressionists until the Second World War in which you have a modern painter like Chagall

a Jewish who paints his rustic legends and taste from Russia

or others I named have been influenced from somewhere

The important incident happens after the Second World War

the 50s and after, when the United States as the winner of the war
intends to impose cultural leadership to the world

a country with no history, no painting in that sense, but something in literature naturally

and starts to create a movement that frightens the world and is still the subject of talks

from two ways: First, values that it puts on art in terms of Dollar and second by advertisement

Two elements which have been unknown throughout the history of art

An artist starts to splash color from a pitcher on the canvas

And his name is Jackson Pollack

the piece is worth 100 million dollars and is kept at New York’s Museum of Modern Art

Now can you say that his work is not very different from the floor of my studio?

You know

Or advertisements

Those years we thought, there was a stupid discussion going
on during our college years that said Art for art, art for people

Art for people belonged to Russians with hammer and sickle on it, and art for art was American

Later when I looked better I saw that as much as hammer
and sickle is political Andy Warhol is political as well

He does publicity for Capitalistic mass production and shows 2000 Campbell Soup

and Coca Cola and Marilyn Monroe

while hammer and sickle does it in a different way

They are both doing the same thing

They are each the political representative of an economic and political tendency

But why should some silk screen prints of Andy Warhol find such global and publicity value

How important his work really is?

We can see this in all domains

Every art student in any part of the world should know well the Western art

but no French artist in these past years does not care about artist s in Iran

or in China or in India with their 6 thousand years of aesthetic history

and understanding of colors and shapes and forms and the glorious flowers and sceneries and people

This is the crisis that we are obliged to talk about

Where does this state of being lost and uncertain originates from?

Why can’t I dare to say that the works of Jackson Pollack

if you cut one square meter of the floor or walls of any art studio

and frame it you’ll have a Jackson Pollack piece

What is the importance of Jackson Pollack?

If not only for Dollar and advertisement

who wants to go to see this work, what feeling does it give you?

You still see the long line of pilgrims who travel to Italy to see the Ceiling of Sistine Chapel

But we don’t care about our own artists

We had a brilliant period of coffeehouse painting, where is it?

I believe this is an unprecedented period in Iranian painting

A naïve and uneducated painting that is full of stories and legends

full of sincerity and affection

But it is worthless because it belongs to the marginal human

from the third world, or whatever fake name they use to terrify others

But they splash pitchers of color on canvas

and they call it the galaxy and the creation of the universe and so on and so forth

What do these come from?

The more the painting has nothing to say or doesn’t say anything

the more they talk about it

They philosophize it endlessly about a black spot

that it talks about the collapse of the human being

that it talks about the collapse of the human being
What are you talking about?

What are you talking about?

Where is it? You’re just saying but I can’t see this

This painting should independently relate to my affection

to my mind and my understanding

This is a corrupt period in the modern art era, starting from the 50s and 60s and still goes on

Talking about a school or style should be done cautiously

Whatever has been called style after World War II

we hear at least 20-30 names which have been born only 3-4 years ago

this is again some sort of chicanery and flatter

The West has been able to do this

to make it its own property by putting names and categorizing

For example, Surrealism; in my opinion you can find Surrealism in the entire art history

in poetry, literature or painting

Icon painting and coffeehouse canvases of Iran are totally surreal works

you encounter it in miniature as well, in literature

when Hafiz says “last night I saw angels knocking at the wine house” this is a surreal image

But what the West did was by putting names

and categorizing art works it made them look like they are the beginning of a movement

but it isn’t. Surrealism dates back to the history of art

Style is a concept related to one period that sometimes exists for 200 years or 300 years or more

out of necessity or for false reasons

Therefore, I assume that whatever has happened in the 20th century

and now in 21st century is the same concept that

if we can agree, we can call it modern art

But we hear a different name everyday which is mostly some kind of diversion

and hobby in my view and therefore the very different trends

that we know that I named they all can be explained under the general name of modern art

The trend that is called Cubism is in a way unique

because it experienced a fundamental change in the way we observe

Cubism is a way of thinking, is a rational look in a way

analyzing the world and transforming it into simple forms, to fundamental shapes

Picasso was a name that occupied the entire twentieth century due to the diversity of his works

you see a classical work ad a surreal work, and he has very diverse trends

Only for a short period of time you find Cubism works among his pieces

In principle the attraction of this personality and his power in drawing and sketching could be educational

and appealing for any artist to see what this human being has done
and how he has laid hands in every domain

When he has worked on ceramic, or on sand of the sea or on whatever he has worked

and the interesting fact he mentions is that the day he starts to disfigure forms about why he does that

his answer is simple he says

“you know I can sketch as good as Rafael, so let me do whatever I want to”

In fact, for me it was like an educational method not a trend I wanted to linger in

As you mentioned in my works the human being is important

flirtations and grace that exist in the creation of this creature which is the most complex

and most interesting and finest

and most interesting and finest
and most skilled and there is possibility to express affection and love and beauty

and most skilled and there is possibility to express affection and love and beauty

So Cubism could not have in its pure form any meaning for me

but as a tool for apprehending sketching it helped me a lot